Are Vaccines Safe for Babies and Pregnant Women?
I know many of you have asked in the forum about whether vaccines are okay for our children, and there’s a lot of conflicting information out there about what age children should be when they receive specific vaccines, as well as whether kids should receive vaccines at all. Researchers have been debating a correlation between vaccines and autism for some time, and this study provides new evidence that vaccines given to pregnant women could be correlated with autism.
Dr. Jay Gordon, a UCLA pediatrician and author of numerous books, has a very thorough presentation you can get for $8.99. I wish it were free (although it’s not expensive and it’s an excellent use of your money) because I want the world to watch it, but what I can tell you is, it’s an excellent resource to turn to, because it explains each vaccine typically recommended for children and discusses all of the questions you may have.
Dr. Jay Gordon’s Take on Vaccines
Here’s a statement from Dr. Jay Gordon on vaccines. This info is meant to answer your questions in detail. He goes through each vaccine and really explains all about each one. I’m excited he’s sharing his expertise with all of us kind lifers, and I encourage you to check out Dr. Jay Gordon’s webinar on vaccines if you want more info:
“First, vaccines are a really personal issue and one of my biggest problems is that 99% of pediatricians don't feel that parents should even participate in the decision about how or when, let alone if a baby should get all, some or none of the shots at any given office visit. The whole process is inherently flawed because we give immunizations pretending to know a lot more about the immune system than we really know.
We also have combined six different vaccines with more than 20 separate antigens to be given at the two-, four-, and six-month check ups. The science behind these combinations is lacking and the challenge 'You can't prove it's dangerous to give these shots at the same time,' completely reverses the real obligation of the manufacturers and vaccine researchers to prove that the vaccines and combinations are safe."
Jay N. Gordon, MD, FAAP
Assistant Professor of Pediatrics, UCLA Medical School
Former Senior Fellow in Pediatric Nutrition, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Institute
What questions do you have about vaccines?
Let’s discuss in the comments below.
Photo: Yanivba via Flickr
259 comments
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But I do see a point about the use of animal products in vaccines - no they are not perfect. I just wonder do you then refuse all medications? Because pretty much all medications are tested on animals. -
I agree with Kathy with a K. Today's vaccines are actually really safe. Really, really safe. I support vaccination for all who can get vaccinated. Unless you cannot get vaccinated due to a TRUE allergy, or because of a contraindication (such as HIV infection), you really should get vaccinated. Yes, partly to protect those who cannot get vaccinated, but also to protect yourselves and your children. I believe that vaccination is one of the few true ways that "modern medicine" has actually made our society healthier. I planned a natural childbirth but had instead an emergency C-section at 33 weeks. I was so grateful when my preemie daughter could get her vaccines to help keep her healthy. It saddens me that many well-meaning folks are not vaccinating their children. Children, yes HEALTHY children, can die of the diseases that we now have vaccines for. This includes Chicken Pox. In fact about 50 children each year in the U.S. died of complications from chicken pox before the vaccine era. This is just one example. I don't think that Dr. Gordon is a valid source. On the other hand, we are literally running out of antibiotics due to antibiotic resistance. We soon will not be able to treat many bacterial infections. Bacterial infections that may arise from complications due to illnesses that we can vaccinate against. Drug companies are not working on new antibiotics because there is little profit in new antibiotics. This is so much more of a true problem than whether or not vaccines are safe. They are.
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Dr. Gordon's claims on immunizations have been thoroughly debunked-years ago, in fact.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/dr-jay-gordon-anti-vaccination/
I believe it is important to educate ourselves on both sides of this debate before taking one person's word. I think part of the problem is that many of us have never lived during a time when thousands of people, mainly children, died due to infectious diseases that we now have vaccines for. Just research the mortality stats of smallpox. -
I think they aren't perfect and there seems to be the wrong motivation driving the industry...BUT babies in other countries die from the diseases we vaccine and generally gain protection against. I hated vaccinating my kids but couldn't imagine not doing it. I did, however, do a lot of research and follow my own schedule. This involved passing on the hep b in the hospital and delaying MMR until my son was three and had been off gluten and dairy for 6 months bc we discovered that he has celiac disease and a dairy sensitivity. I at least tried to get him more healed and wait until a better time developmentally before allowing that one. Would have waited even longer but we moved to Europe where there has been a lot of Measles. I feel that I did the best I could but I wish there was rational discussing of the issues and progressive in favor of the precious children we are trying to protect.
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Your vegan opinions on the following question are invited:
Shall we stop giving the polio vaccine?
Stopping vaccination against polio will leave people susceptible to infection with poliovirus. Polio causes acute paralysis that can lead to permanent physical disability and even death. Before polio vaccine was available, 13,000 to 20,000 cases of paralytic polio were reported each year in the United States. Annual epidemics of polio often left victims—mostly children—in braces, crutches, wheelchairs, and, in serious cases, iron lungs. Many of the children that survived experienced life-long consequences from the disease.
In 1988, the World Health Assembly unanimously agreed to eradicate polio worldwide. As a result of global polio eradication efforts, the number of cases reported globally has decreased from more than 350,000 cases in 1988 to 187 cases in 2012 (as of November 14, 2012). Only three countries remain endemic for polio in 2012: Afghanistan, Nigeria, and Pakistan. Stopping vaccination before eradication is achieved would result in a resurgence of this preventable disease and threaten future generations of children.
That's right:
350,000 cases in 1988
187 in 2012
So, shall we stop giving the polio vaccine? -
I find it very interesting that a forum for those who choose a vegan diet in the spirit of protecting animals are here arguing in favor of the use of animal parts in vaccinations. Even the CDC admits using gelatin (from animal bones) chicken egg protein, bovine serum (extracted from cow skin), and other animal products. Why do we need to be injected with these things to stay alive? I don't buy it. As the mother of a 6 month old unvaccinated child, I am continuing my research and won't say that I'm 100% against vaccines, but I am certainly learning a lot. Currently I am sensing that the vaccination business is a grand (American) human experiment. One example of recent info we gathered: hy husband and I spoke with an engineer who makes his living making a vaccine for a particular disease, and he told us that 70% of the people who contract the disease had already been vaccinated.
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I taken your point Sara about the vegan ethical dilemma here.
As for the grand (American)experiment:
Polio worldwide:
Some data from the CDC website:
350,000 cases in 1988
187 in 2012
I would say this is a successful (worldwide) experiment.
So, shall we stop giving the polio vaccine?-
"From 1923 to 1953, before the Salk killed-virus vaccine was introduced, the polio death rate in the United States and England had already declined on its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively." Source International Mortality Statistics (1981) by Michael Alderson.
Diseases and viruses have natural life cycles...they're super powerful for a while, then they're not.
Here's more graphical evidence to support that vaccines have not saved us from disease:http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html -
"Scientific medicine has taken credit it does not deserve for some advances in health. Most people believe that victory over the infectious diseases of the last century came with the invention of immunisations. In fact, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, etc, were in decline before vaccines for them became available - the result of better methods of sanitation, sewage disposal, and distribution of food and water." - Dr. Andrew Weil
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On the 70% number:
That may be true. Given that ~95% of the population vaccinates and that ~5% do not, the purely random incidence of disease would be in a 19:1 ratio.
Instead, it is 7:3 (i.e., 70% to 30%).
For 100 cases of disease, we would expect 95 to be people who had been vaccinated and 5 who had not been, if the vaccine did not work.
Instead, we see 70 people who had been vaccinated and 30 who had not.
This suggests, roughly, that the decision to not vaccinate raises the risk to those by 600% (from 5 ill to 30 ill).
The actual results are much worse.
In the event that nobody vaccinated, the incidence of disease would be much, much higher. (see polio data in my other comment as an example).
As the %age of vaccinated drops from 95% to 90% to 85% and so on, herd immunity will begin to disappear, disease incidence will increase markedly, and those without vaccinations will suffer the most.
No question about that.
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Thank you for posting this. My best freinds son ws doing great when he was born and then a few weeks after some vacinations something went terribly wrong. He stopped talking, looking at and playing with you. This once vibrant giggling little moneky was off in his own world.
His parents and I (his caregiver to this day, 12 years later.)where scared out of our minds.
At the time TIME magazine had put out an issue about Autisim. His parents and I read it and we where both relieved and scared. Relieved that we might have some answers, and scared about his quality of life.
He was tested and is profoundly autistic. He is now 12 years old and struggles with so many things. He is a very bright child, and still giggly. The worst part of this is not hearing him talk. The last time I heard him speak was at 17 months.
His parents and I blame vaccinations for causing his autism.
He is on massive amounts of medications to stop him from hurting himself and other people. He has injured his mother and myself several times.
It just kills me wondering what his life would of been like if he had never been vaccinated.
I know that there is no real solid evidence out there(and if there is it's being withheld from the public just for the sake of pharmecutical greed.)to support this.
I owuld say dont vaccinate, schools cannot deny your child an education because of this.
I had chicken pox and I'm still here. I was the carrier and carried it for two years. When I had it I had it for two weeks and it was horrible. I survived it though.
I just think that things like that can totally build up your immune system.
Thanks for reading this.-
Terribly sorry to hear about the troubles of your friends and their son.
No scientific evidence supports a link between autism and vaccination. The original article suggesting that there was a link has been thoroughly discredited.
It's easy to blame pharmaceutical greed, but the reality remains:
Polio is a horrible disease.
Smallpox is a killer.
The fact that you survived chicken pox and that your friend's son began to display autism at the time that he was vaccinated do not add up to science that vaccinations are bad.
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If I pay for the webinar, am I able to watch it multiple times? I'd love for my husband to see it too, so I just want to make sure he'll be able to watch it later...
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A note on Herd Immunity and the risks of exposure...
Herd immunity theory may have been misunderstood by some people. You see, it isn't a mechanism through which the weakest and most unhealthy would necessarily be the ones falling ill. Herd immunity works to reduce the reserviour of virus or bacteria within the population. The mechanism of transfer between people would remain the same (contact with infected individuals). So no matter whether you choose to vaccinate your children or not, it is pure chance that they may encounter another child who is infected. With some of the minor conditions they, as healthy children, could fight it off. But what if a child gets mumps as an adolescent male? Your child would loose his fertility and ability to have children of his own. Just by the chance of bumping into another person with the disease. So I would say herd immunity is a benefit to everyone, including your children, who are benefiting from the decreased proportion of the population carrying viruses or bacteria to pass on.
So just as has been pointed out by other people here, you can't be sure it is the lack of vaccine that is keeping your child well (for instance living a healthy lifestyle, surely improves their immune system and general health). It is also perhaps the fact that your child hasn't yet encountered another person with the disease, due to the majority of the population shielding him/her from it. If the numbers drop for vaccination in general this protection will be lost and the disease will become more prevalent and there will be more of a chance that they will be exposed to the disease.
As a final note, perhaps the discussion which is most intriguing and useful is the age at which we should vaccinate children and in what combinations? I believe the benefits outweigh proposed risks. But I understand the concern over the volume and frequency of vaccination. Medicine in general is an abnormal thing, something outside of nature. Every medicine having potential toxicities and side-effects. But in the quest for an all natural lifestyle we may be leading ourselves and our children toward an all natural death. For myself my natural death would've been aged 6 when I had a severe pneumonia, that I would never have recovered from without antibiotics. So drawing a balance between a clean and natural lifestyle and the reality of loosing a family member whenever they happen to fall ill, is a difficult balance to make. In the current world is it better to protect your child from the risk, than to wait and see and hope? For me a child gaining an allergy (which is not clinically proven to be caused by vaccines) is better than the child gaining something like tetanus, a disease which frequently kills children in the third world. I am not a gambling person and perhaps that explains my aversion to waiting and hoping. I do not doubt that modern lifestyles increase the chance of disease, but many of these illnesses have been around since prehistoric times, killing people who had healthy lifestyles. I think that humanity should strive for less risky and more natural compounds in vaccines and a clearer review to help understand all risks. But I don't think we should put young people in danger in the mean time, vaccines are the best prevention medicine can offer. And prevention is always better than cure. -
I appreciate Zamboni for presenting the case in favor of vaccinations here, as this is clearly a forum predisposed to the opposite viewpoint.
Let's start by considering polio:
Stopping vaccination against polio will leave people susceptible to infection with poliovirus. Polio causes acute paralysis that can lead to permanent physical disability and even death. Before polio vaccine was available, 13,000 to 20,000 cases of paralytic polio were reported each year in the United States. Annual epidemics of polio often left victims—mostly children—in braces, crutches, wheelchairs, and, in serious cases, iron lungs. Many of the children that survived experienced life-long consequences from the disease.
In 1988, the World Health Assembly unanimously agreed to eradicate polio worldwide. As a result of global polio eradication efforts, the number of cases reported globally has decreased from more than 350,000 cases in 1988 to 187 cases in 2012 (as of November 14, 2012). Only three countries remain endemic for polio in 2012: Afghanistan, Nigeria, and Pakistan. Stopping vaccination before eradication is achieved would result in a resurgence of this preventable disease and threaten future generations of children.
That's right:
350,000 cases in 1988
187 in 2012
So, shall we stop giving the polio vaccine? -
One more thing--I personally dont care at all about research, the CDC and science proving anything regarding vaccines. Science can be bought and manipulated to show any result and I believe instinct, intuition and REAL people with real stories are more accurate indicators regarding vaccinations. Here's what I say: would you drink a vaccine? take the vial and drink it? Of course not!
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Some data from the CDC website:
350,000 cases in 1988
187 in 2012
So, shall we stop giving the polio vaccine?
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Actually, to not vaccinate was the easiest decision regarding raising kids. I am THRILLED I never vaccinated my now 15 and 11 year old boys. They are never sick. EVER. They are gorgeous, smart, funny, super healthy....they RADIATE health beyond anything....they shine like stars. Incredible! I wish my mother never vaccinated me....but at least it was in the 60's and 70's when it wasn't so INSANE as it is today. Both my kids were born at home, both had chicken pox, whooping cough [unless you have a baby, do not fear this illness! IT"S OK! You'll get through it...it's not that bad at all] and that's it. Never been to a doctor EVER. I learned about self-care, nutrition, herbalogy, and have found that once radiant health is established, it's really easy to maintain! Vaccines are poison.....it makes no sense to poison a baby no less anyone. And herd immunity argument is pure crap. If it were true, then we all would be devastated with illness because hardly any adults get boosters....and adults with THE MOST unhealthy lifestyles would be getting polio, rubella, mumps, etc. left and right if the theory of herd immunity were true. IGNORE THE FEAR MACHINE....
And teenage girls getting the [anti-female!!] Gardisil shot---you are guinea pigs...no long term study on your FERTILITY has ever been done cause the shot has only been on the market a few years!!! Really, think about that!!! Cervical cancer is caused by many different strains of the HPV, and the shot only 'protects' againt a few. More bullshit. ""You might fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool""....finish it for me PLEASE!! -
Alicia Silverstone, you are awesome for posting this! It is so wonderful to hear some truth.
After my son received 7 vaccines at his 2 month appointment.. something went off in my head..”this isn’t right.” I started researching and I haven’t stopped since. The things that ive learned make me so glad that I have not given my son a vaccine since..i will never give him another..ever. He is now almost 17 months and is healthier than all of my friend’s kids. Ear infections, eczema, and food allergies are not supposed to be a passage of childhood. Before people state that parents who do not vaccinate are crazy, I would like you to consider a few things. If vaccines are as wonderful as we are told then would someone please explain to me why in 1950 the US ranked 3rd for infant mortality rate and in 2012 our rank was 30th. (we rank second to last..this is embarrassing) Furthermore, more full term babies die before their first birthday in the US than in most European countries, and the US gives its infants more vaccines than any other country in the world. Kids are sick. we vaccinate against chickenpox for goodness sake! where do you draw the line? what have we done to this generation of children? 1 in 6 has a learning disability. 1 in 54 boys has autism. Vaccines have poisons in them. don't believe me? look up the CDC chart of vaccine ingredients. we are giving newborns (given before they leave the hospital) a vaccine loaded with aluminum and formaldehyde to supposedly protect them against hepatitis b - a sexually transmitted disease – and they only claim that the shot protects for around 10 years. We give 2 month old babies shots for tetanus. Why? two month old babies aren't crawling around..they are not at risk. we are doing all of this before the blood brain barrier closes. The vaccination schedule as it is administered and its cumulative effect has NEVER been tested. They have never given a large group of children, starting at birth, the recommended vaccination schedule and studied what happened. is this not scary? in 1983 children received 10 doses of 7 vaccines before the age of 6. today children receive up to 49 doses of around 16 vaccines before the age of 6. Please look into this issue..your children will benefit. ..and you will be so glad you did.
Some peer reviewed literature to read:
-“ Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/
-“Relative trends in hospitalizations and mortality among infants by the number of vaccine doses and age, based on the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), 1990–2010”
http://het.sagepub.com/content/31/10/1012.full
-“ Comparison of VAERS fetal-loss reports during three consecutive influenza seasons. Was there a synergistic fetal toxicity associated with the two-vaccine 2009/2010 season?”
http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/12/0960327112455067.abstract -
A lot of people are posting that the children they know who have been vaccinated are the ones who get sick, while their unvaccinated kids are rarely or never sick. I would be very interested to know which of these children are eating a vegan, or even vegetarian, diet. If you're feeding your child a healthy diet, they're not going to be as sick as often as a child eating the SAD. I know first hand that since going vegan, I very rarely get sick. My friend's children who are also vegan aren't sick that much either. I have a family member who did not vaccinate her child but their family eats very poorly. She gets sick all the time. I would just like to know how you can be so sure that not vaccinating your child is why they are healthier? Lots of factors are involved and I think it's misleading to make such statements. I think when discussing this very serious issue we should use facts only. -
To the people posting about the HPV vaccine below:
I had the HPV/ Gardisal vaccine almost 4 years ago at age 19. In all of the vaccine injections I received for HPV, none of them caused any ill rejections or illness. I chose to receive the Gardisal vaccine because my mom had cervical cancer and had to have a hysterectomy. I would rather be safe and prevent cervical cancer, infertility and herpes than worry about HPV.
In fact, about 70% of Americans have been expose to some time of HPV. I've been vegan for over 6 years, since age 16 (I'm almost 23 now) but I chose to get vaccines. There has been more studies supporting the use of vaccines than opposed to it. I think most of the hype against the HPV vaccine have been because of anti-sex groups. The most important thing to realize is that millions of people around the world die from preventable diseases like Malaria, while only a few people per year die from ill reactions to vaccines.-
" There has been more studies supporting the use of vaccines than opposed to it." That would be VERY helpful information when deciding whether to vaccinate if you don't think on it much. There will always be more studies to support vaccines than to oppose them as you said because vaccines make lots of money. Who is getting rich from the studies that reveal the dangers of vaccines? Those studies probably don't have quite as much potential for $$$. Make no mistake - it's an industry. The people advertising these vaccines and "proving" their "safety" aren't doing it for the good of humankind. They are in it for the profits.
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As a college senior, my OB/GYN advised me to take the HPV vaccine since I was sexually active. I did, and within two years, I suddenly had a gallbladder failure that resulted in an emergency operation to have it removed. I then suffered from pancreatitis and liver enzymes that were more than three times the average rate. I am not overweight, and I was 24 at the time of these situations. I also never had any major digestive issues until this vaccine. Since the vaccine, I have also been diagnosed with chronic indigestion and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). My doctor never explained these risks to me. I must say that vaccines can be awfully dangerous.
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Hi Kate,
I'm really sorry to heat about the medical issues you've had. These kinds of things are never easy, especially when they are the types of problems that doctors still aren't sure how to fix.
In circumstances like yours, it's very hard to disentangle correlation and causation, especially because of the long time delay between treatment and symptoms.
That being said, your doctor certainly should have informed you of the potential side effects from the vaccine. Even in cases where rare reactions to vaccines occur, however, they are still usually less severe than the disease they prevent.
In the case of HPV, the virus is a major cause of cervical cancer.
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I am from Quebec (Canada) and vaccines are not mandatory at all here. My daughter never received a shot and I can tell you that she is never sick compared to her vaccinated friends. I am not sure it is a coincidence. She has had chickenpox by the age of 2 and there really was nothing to worry about. If you read about other childhood illnesses most of them are not considered dangerous for healthy babies (with the exception of whooping cough)and I personally believe that the best prevention for a baby is breastfeeding as the mother will create specific antibodies as the child get sick. When I was a kid the MMR vaccine was given around the age of 11 because that is when these illnesses start to be more dangerous for people and yet these are now given too early in my opinion. If you really do believe that vaccines are necessary then at least wait until your child's immune system is mature enough to cope with the extreme aggression a shot is.
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Hi Catherine,
It's good to hear that your child never got sick, but I think you're making a mistake if you believe that vaccine preventable diseases are not dangerous. Measles, HiB, rotovirus and other childhood diseases can cause death or permanent disability EVEN in healthy babies.
You are correct, however, that breastfeeding is a fantastic way to keep your child safe from diseases that you have immunity to already. Still, you aren't going to be immune to every disease they might encounter (you probably have never had measles, for instance).
Vaccines expose children to a broken piece of a virus (an antigen), allowing their immune system to prepare for the day that it might see the real thing. Their immune systems naturally encounter hundreds and thousands of new antigens every day. Compared to their normal lives, vaccines are a drop in the bucket to their immune systems.-
You don't need to be already immune to a disease to produce antibodies that will be passed on to your baby. As soon as a person gets in contact with a virus he/she will produce antibodies. That's the way it works and that is the science vaccines are based on. The problem with vaccines is that it bypasses a lot of natural barriers and I am not convinced it is as effective as the real thing. Besides I do not know if I ever had measles or any other preventable diseases because one can have those and not develop the full blown version of them. What you usually think is the flu may be anything from chickenpox to hepatitis (the first barrier for germs is the respiratory tract and if your immune system functions well,nothing will pass that barrier hence the flu/cold like symptoms). The only way to know for sure if you have had a disease is to test for it.
As you mentioned the immune system of a baby will encounter countless new antigens everyday and that is a good thing. We should let them be sick and by that I mean to stop suppressing all the symptoms with medication. Fever should always run its course unless it is from food poisoning or a heatstroke. This is how the immune system is designed and it is very effective but vaccines and other medication are most of the time in the way of recovery.
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Well, I know that I am facing a lot of problems in my life due to my mum being forced to have the German Measles injection and iron supplements when she was pregnant. She had already had German Measles and her iron was on the heavy side. These things could be an underlying factor in why my liver is stuffed. The other thing I had was the hpv vaccine and that 3 part injection could be why I started getting sleepy and needing naps in the day which b4 that I never did. Now, I can't prove that is the case but it is suspect.
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Although I'm not a parent yet, I imagine this is one of the first, truly difficult moments of having to make a choice of risk for your child. Some risks are easy to forgo -- trying to prevent your child from being exposed to second hand smoke, trying to prevent them from eating foods that could make them sick -- because the trade-off results in minimal to no loss; foods can be replaced, smoking -- although it may feel like it -- is not a necessity. Foods should not contain hormones or be served with a side of pesticides and I strongly believe that a responsible and attentive vegan parents, can nourish their child with the same diet.
But vaccines are different. While there is always a remote chance of your child developing a rare reaction to a foreign substance introduced into their body, the alternative of contracting whooping cough, for instance, is far graver a danger, with more potentially lethal results. These are horrific illnesses and the danger for contraction is very real, particularly with large influxes of new immigrants who may carry these illnesses, unawares.
Younger generations don't remember seeing peers who were rendered immobile from polio. Communities no longer anticipate losing one out of every 5 young children to rubella or measles, like they did just a hundred years ago. My motto is to question everything but sometimes in life, you have to choose between evils and weigh things on a risk vs. benefit basis. The risks of vaccination are far and below the risks associated with not vaccinating. If you don't want to introduce them all at once, discuss with your doctor a schedule of staggering the vaccines and observation, to ensure that no portion of a vaccine is provoking a bad reaction in your child.-
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You all are aware that EVERY reported case of Polio since 1978 was a result of the Polio vaccine? Do your research. It's fact.
Also, Zamboni - you're clearly pro vaccination and your comments are annoying.
Also show me a child with autism or another development disorder, or one with any of these "preventable" disease who wasn't vaccinated...seriously, try to find them. I promise you'll have a much easier time finding kids who have suffered because of vaccines.
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Alicia, in your introduction, you said this and provided this link here:
Researchers have been debating a correlation between vaccines and autism for some time, and this study provides new evidence that vaccines given to pregnant women could be correlated with autism.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/immune-disorders-and-autism.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Please read this article. This does absolutely does not support support your fear of vaccinating pregnant women and increased risk of having a child diagnosed in the autism spectrum, possibly the opposite. This articles cites research that points to the following possible causes of autism:
>infection during pregnancy increases the risk of autism in the child.
>Hospitalization for a viral infection, like the flu, during the first trimester of pregnancy triples the odds
>Bacterial infection, including of the urinary tract, during the second trimester increases chances by 40 percent.
>mother’s rheumatoid arthritis... elevated a child’s risk of autism by 80 percent
>celiac disease... increased it 350 percent
> Gene variants associated with autoimmune disease... also increase the risk of autism, especially when they occur in the mother
> A mother’s diagnosis of asthma or allergies during the second trimester of pregnancy increases her child’s risk of autism.
>metabolic syndrome, a disorder associated with insulin resistance, obesity and, crucially, low-grade inflammation
Also being a boy and first born puts you at greater risk. No where is it mentioned there is any link between immunizations and increased risk of autism. When we talk about doing our own research and sharing our opinions, remember the responsibility of sharing these opinions, not to be dramatic but the reality is not vaccinating can leave infants, children and adults with long term health problems and people can die of vaccine preventable diseases.
Think Varicella is a cute little disease that kids get and it helps make their immune system stronger? Think again. In 2010, there were 42 cases in California that were so severe, the person required hospitalization or died (see link below). Maybe doing our own research can start with reading the things we actually post. Please read the article you linked to Alicia.
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/NumberandIncidenceofVaccinePreventableDiseases-California2010.pdf
Also, sure, you can find someone with an M.D behind their name who questions vaccines. However, if you ask most doctors, they will say they fully support vaccines. Anecdotally, I talk to hundreds of doctors a year and I specifically ask if they have any patients with reactions to vaccines. The most common response I hear is syncope. That is fainting,probably from the fear of the needle. The doctor you brought to this form does not have research to share. He has an opinion and a proprietary interest.-
Well said....after all these posts it would be interesting to hear further input or opinion from Alecia Silverstone, herself, on this very important matter. Have her views been impacted by the wealth of information that has been brought forward, or does she remain strongly opposed to vaccinations. Alecia's statement as to why she was not going to vaccinate her child (which showed up as part of the e mail) is what led me to this discussion....not the question that is at the top of the site..i.e: Are Vaccines safe etc.
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Can you guarantee that all 42 cases in California were unvaccinated children? I think you'd be surprised to see how many vaccinated children are the ones who contract these diseases...
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I've been researching vaccines for 14 years. My 10 and 7 year old kids are unvaccinated as well. They are healthy, never had any ear infections, no allergies, no asthma, no learning disabilities. Never needed antibiotics or any medication. Every day I am thankful that I started learning about the dangers of vaccines before I had children because I believe it has given them a healthier life.-
Where do you do research? Have you published articles in any science journals? What dangers are there? Do you have citations to back up these claims of danger?-
I didn't post to argue. I posted to show like minded well researched parents that they are not alone. It is not my responsibility to do your research or change your mind. Inject yourself with whatever you want.
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Desiree, you are the one who came on here with your claim of 14 years of research. Are you qualified to evaluate that research? I leave my research to the experts for they are the most qualified to do so. Anecdotes, as compelling as they are, are not sufficient evidence for which to draw conclusions.
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Desiree,
It's really great to hear that none of your children ever came down with a vaccine-preventable disease. Your experience does not mean vaccines aren't needed, however. In fact, your children were protected because vaccine-preventable diseases have become really rare.
Like Dave, I am also interested in the research you've done. The CDC, the Institute of Medicine and every major public health organization highly recommend vaccines -- what sort of evidence would you want to see to make you more comfortable with them?
I really think that discussing these issues is the best way to sort out their complexity, so please post back if you have the time! -
So how do you explain the millions of vaccinated people who never had any of those problems either? Or the unvaccinated ones who do? I can tell you vaccines didn't give me asthma or eczema. My mom wasn't vaccinated when she was born in 1934, but she had horrible eczema, terrible ear infections, and spent most of her kindergarten year hospitalized. My sisters and I all had eczema - and I developed asthma as an adult,and there *is* a scientific correlation between childhood eczema (mine cleared up when I hit puberty) and adult onset asthma. None of this had anything to do with vaccines, I'm quite sure.
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Nobody can explain that, of course. All of us are shaped by our personal experiences and just like you have seen vaccine preventable illnesses sicken and cause death I have seen that nearly every vaccinated child I know has health issues (ear infections, asthma plus even worse respiratory issues, allergies, very regular colds and stomach bugs, and developmental issues). I only know two children who haven't been vaccinated. They are almost never sick and don't have any serious recurring issues. That's only two kids, of course. I wish I knew more unvaccinated children because I am curious what I would see. I am not trying to be totally anti vaccine here because I truly don't believe I will ever read enough on both sides to feel certain of anything. I can't imagine how so many people come to such a definite conclusion if they are actually reading information from both sides. Anyway, you asked how she would explain vaccinated people who don't develop alleged vaccine damages - I can't remember which vaccine book I read this in but it described some people as being like a loaded gun and the vaccine pulls the trigger. We are all different afterall. It seems possible that some bodies can process things that other bodies cannot. There are too many moms out there who say the same exact thing -that their child became sick and then turned into a different child within hours of receiving a vaccine. I can't possibly tell myself ALL those moms are mistaken or crazy.
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@Jennifer Davis : u probably know node unvaccinated children than u think but parents are unwilling to share bc of the hatred/rage heaped upon them..just look at Dandelion Dave's posts - he told me to keep on vaccinating my baby even after sharing that she had a severe rxn. I asked if he thinks my child should just b collateral damage & he never responded. I wonder if it was his child (if he's even a dad) who was sick as a dog if he'd b so quick to continue vaccinating..Guess his silence says it all since hes so vocal -
@Desiree : isn't it great that there are medical professionals (plural!) on BOTH sides of this debate?!!
Hooray for being able to parent OUR children the way WE SEE FIT!
Otherwise, this would stop being a democracy - no? Might as well then let the Govt/Corps round our kids up and raise them if we rendered mute blind n powerless. -
I did some work in East Africa...and prior to many of the immunizations there was suffering for no reason...the stigma of them though should be to each individual as long as it does not add to a community health issue
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I guess my perspective is a little different, since a friend of my husband's died at age 30 of chickenpox, before the chickenpox vaccine was available. I also saw how miserable my 13 year old sister was with chickenpox, remember how miserable I was with the mumps, and also saw how quickly my husband got very, very sick from whooping cough just five short years ago.
You can bet I'm pro-vaccination, since my husband probably caught whooping cough from some unvaccinated carrier, and I was beyond relieved I had just received my updated DPT shot, since I have asthma and whooping cough could hospitalize me. I also get a flu shot every year and guess what? The only years I got the flu were the years I wasn't vaccinated.-
Thanks, MB. Comments like yours are really important. Because vaccine-preventable diseases have become much less common, it's really easy to forget how devastating they can be!
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In 1997, less than 3 weeks after receiving her 2 month vaccines, my 2 month old daughter passed away from S.I.D.S.
I've looked at both sides of the debate and am very torn. All of my children are 100% vaccinated. One has a learning disability. I'm now expecting, and in less than 5 weeks our baby boy will be born. Despite losing our daughter, I still believe vaccines have their place. I have discussed a delayed vaccine schedule with our pediatrician and will not be getting Hep B at birth, which is ridiculous since I don't have it. What I find so upsetting about vaccines is that I can't say, "yes, vaccinate him for Pertussis and only Pertussis. "
The pharmaceutical industry has made it impossible for me to feel good about giving a vaccine that I believe necessary, because to do so, I will also need to overload my baby's immune system with 2 vaccines I don't feel are necessary. So my choice becomes that I won't vaccinate for this now. Atleast not until his immune system is stronger.
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Ok, I have decided that due to the comments made by many people that subscribe to this blog, I am withdrawing my subscription. I am all for clean living and healthy lifestyles but when people are so totally ignorant as to reject immunizations, I can no longer associate with such people. Really, putting all your faith in what you eat will protect you from measles? I just pray you or a loved one does not need to feel the pain of losing someone due to your beliefs. Signing off!
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Machelle, this is what I'm afraid of when veganism gets associated with fringe pseudoscience. People will start abandoning it. Especially those who bring a more rational approach and we need more of them. We've been trying to fight this at Vegan Chicago but I'm afraid it's a losing battle. Sorry to see you leave.
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Thank you Dave and Machelle for making me feel less alone. I wish I could open a Yoga magazine without being inundated with ads for Foot Detox pads, open a vegan e-mail without being solicited to buy some Magic Cleanse and read up on massage therapy without being offered a special on ear candling. Pseudoscience and anti-science have virtually taken over the world of veganism and health, and it makes steam come out of my ears. There are great moral and health benefits to veganism and other alternative health practices, and those benefits are supported by science. As a Harvard graduate, I closely followed the Harvard Nurses study that confirmed dairy does not help prevent osteoporosis, to give one example.
It does kind of make me want to flee. People who think their own judgment is better than that of the experts are a frustrating part of this community. I wish there were more people like you out there to help keep me from banging my head on my desk. It kind of feels like being a Christian in a room full of creationists. Then again, the idea that one has some magic secret knowledge the mainstream is conspiring to keep from you has an odd appeal I am afraid will never go away. -
Thanks LawGeek, it's good to know you're out there. I'm actually heartened by the number of critical thinking vegans that have chimed up in this thread. The numbers are uncomfortably small still but it's more than I expected.
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I noticed that there are very intelligent people who believe in vaccinating and very intelligent people who don't. So I find it arrogant when people on EITHER side slam other parents in this way. I hear it again and again. Becoming a mother made me so impressed with all of womankind because as hard as it is, as much bravery as it takes we keep doing it! But, something I am particularly unimpressed by is the way mothers are always judging each others mothering! There is no excuse. I have also noticed that when a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child it is generally after putting in more research than the average parent does. Parents who choose not to vaccinate are the ones NOT blindly following the masses. They are parents who did the research for themselves and should at least be respected for taking that responsibility for their child. I respect every parents decision because it is a tough one.
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Unless parents are scientists themselves in this particular field they really should be looking to the consensus of experts for advice. I posted several links below for organizations who make such recommendations based upon science.
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Hi Jennifer,
Judging someone for their parenting is generally a losing proposition. In fact, I agree with you that parents who choose not to vaccinate usually take the decision very seriously. The problem is that parents are trying to do the right thing for their children, but they're confronted by a TON of information (much of it conflicting).
The internet has only made this information overload worse, as anyone with an opinion can broadcast it. The thing is, when it comes to vaccines, there IS a definitive answer:
Hundred of studies have shown that the small risk of complications that arise from vaccines are dwarfed by the very real risks that come with the diseases these vaccines prevent. Furthermore, while there are some rare (but scary) reactions to vaccines, developmental disorders ARE NOT one of them.
Stories of vaccine injuries, while horrible, are anecdotal (this doesn't mean they're fake, it means they don't represent the vast majority of cases). The dangers of vaccine-preventable diseases, however, are all too real.
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Zamboni,
Maybe you can answer a question for me. Please hear this for what it is. I am not challenging your beliefs. I genuinely want to know something you might know. I have asked one doctor and she sort of changed the subject. Is it true that disease rates fell in Europe at the same time as the U.S. without mass vaccination being implemented there?
Also, as far as the studies you mentioned, how objective can they be? Where does the funding come from? Studies are funded when there is money to be made. Aren't these studies usually funded by the drug company trying to get their product approved? Or an organization that is employed by them?-
Hi Jennifer,
Thanks for your questions!
Sadly, I don't have a complete answer to your first question about disease rates in Europe. Could you point me to a sources where you read this? If I had access to some data, I could do a better job answering your question.
The reason this question is so tough is that broad questions about disease rates in general are difficult to answer because there are so MANY diseases. Diseases can also have complicated relationships. When you eliminate one disease, another one can sometimes move in and take advantage of the vacuum that is left behind. The second reason is because public health data was not of very high quality until fairly recently. There are all sorts of biases in old data. I am going to ask my friend (he does biostatistics) if he can help me with this one.
Also, keep in mind that sanitation and medical treatments (other than vaccines) were also advancing around the same time vaccines were implemented. This could be partially responsible for a drop in European disease rates.
As for your second concern regarding bias in scientific studies, I totally understand where you're coming from. Experimental bias is one of the biggest challenges in science right now, and one that scientists are taking very seriously. Recent work has shown that sometimes when a company funds a study, the results are more favorable to that company's drug -- and this is unacceptable.
HOWEVER, in the case of vaccines, most studies have been performed with funds from the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The NIH budget for research comes from your tax dollars, not from companies. All of the studies and analysis support the use of vaccines to prevent disease. The most comprehensive study is from the Institute of Medicine, a non-profit, non-government group (http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety.aspx).
If you don't trust the NIH or the IOM, then you can at least trust in human greed! What I mean is that I, or any other scientist, who found convincing evidence that vaccines were more harmful than helpful would make a TON of money, become famous, etc. Dr. Jay (whose webinar convinced Alecia not to vaccinate) doesn't have any actual scientific data and he already makes a good amount of money off of this issue. You can imagine how well someone with solid evidence would do!
Anyway, I hope that I answered your questions to your satisfaction. If not, I'd be happy to try again. I LOVE discussing science, so feel free to hit me up with questions anytime thescienceguy2013@mailinator.com. -
There are illnesses like scarlet fever whose rates have decreased dramatically without the help of vaccines.
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Hi Catherine,
A lot of diseases have decreased in incidence and severity even without vaccines, but this doesn't mean that vaccines are not needed.
Vaccines are one of the only protections we have against viral diseases, for instance.
Scarlet fever is a bacterial infection, so antibiotics do an excellent job of fighting it without the need to vaccinate anyone.
Generally, a vaccine is only invented when there is no good or effective treatment for a disease that has the potential to cause serious harm.
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Machelle, there's nothing wrong with open dialogue and understanding how others think and what they're afraid of. You should stick around and share what you have to offer. If you disagree with something, engage and explain why you do. Some readers might learn something from your perspective.
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Zamboni,
"There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease. If immunizations were responsible for the disappearance of these diseases in the U.S., one must ask why they disappeared simultaneously in Europe, where mass immunizations did not take place."
How To Raise a Healthy Child In Spite of Your Doctor by John Mendelsohn, M.D.
Tim O'Shea's book The Sanctity of Human Blood: Vaccination is Not Immunization contains a chart on page 48 showing disease rates from 1900 to 1970 for Diphtheria, Pertussis, Measles, and Influenza. There are a couple similar charts that follow and page 50 lists the advent of the vaccine for each disease. The point - the diseases had declined so greatly before the vaccine had a chance to save us that what's to say the little bit of decline in disease rates following introduction of the vaccine was actually an effect of the vaccine? How do we know that the diseases weren't simply continuing to decline just as they had been doing steadily without a vaccine?
(I have not verified O'Shea's information. I actually tried to base most of my decision making on information from The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears more than any other book I have read.)
"By the late 1930's, prior to widespread immunization against pertussis, the mortality rates had decreased to approximately 2 per 100,000. In England 1 of every 1,000 children under the age of 15 died of pertussis in the late nineteenth century; by 1940 this rate was down by 90 percent. In Sweden and Germany declines in pertussis mortality rates were comparable and significant."
- Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide by Aviva Jill Romm
About the NIH and the IOM - the books I have read talk a lot more about the CDC, the FDA, the ACIP, and VRBPAC. I will have to read up on the the NIH and IOM. Right now I am going to check out your link.
Thanks for the answers!
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Kara, not "virtually everyone" gets vaccinated. That is over the top and just not accurate.
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The actual numbers:
Nationally, vaccination coverage increased in 2010 compared with 2009 for ≥1 dose of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR), from 90.0% to 91.5%; ≥4 doses of pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV), from 80.4% to 83.3%; the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine (HepB), from 60.8% to 64.1%; ≥2 doses of hepatitis A vaccine (HepA), from 46.6% to 49.7%; rotavirus vaccine, from 43.9% to 59.2%; and the full series of Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) vaccine, from 54.8% to 66.8%
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6034a2.htm-
Well I appreciate the info. I like hearing the exact numbers. I certainly don't consider this "virtually everyone". I have visited the CDC website a few times. Good share nonetheless.
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Dr. Gordon,
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your opinion. I cannot speak for anyone else, but my previous post was not in response to your original material. It was in response to the members of this community who propose that a plant based diet is a cure for all of life’s ailments.
Unfortunately, this portion of the website has been used to push an anti-medicine agenda, which is evident in many of the comments. This forum sends out e-mail notifications for all of the posts. Your material was sent out with the subject line “Why I Haven’t Vaccinated Bear”. I think that gave the wrong impression of your position.
Kind Regards,
Shannon
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